V5 in Development


Tinkering with the Delving Deeper RPG

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Post Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:20 pm

V5 in Development

The Red Baron wrote:Do you have any idea on whenabouts V5 will be out?


Hey Red Baron, thanks for asking :)

Short answer is: no, I don't have a date yet.

Longer answer is: real life seems to be conspiring against me lately, and I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel yet. So I've decided--in the interest of getting something out there sooner--I'm going to publish each of the three volumes seperately, as they're ready, before ultimately combinging them into the more familar Compendium format.

The first V5 issue will natrually be Volume I: Heroes & Magic. The "Heroes" part is completely written up and ready. The "Magic" part (being the spells descriptions) still needs a further review. Regardless of tweaks to some of the spell descriptions, the whole of Vol I is ready to be layed out (and has been for some time). I have also recently made the decision to outsource the bulk layout work, but even so it's a reasonable challenge just to orchistrate that effort. Alas, I can't give you a date yet... but I am still considering whether I want to "leak" some of the competed content before it is published.
[f=32]Golgildir the Elf Medium (MV 12", AC 9, HD 1, hp 1/1, AL N) great cloak, lantern; spells: color spray; scrolls: sleep, sleep, charm person
Hirelings: Georges; torch[/f]
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Post Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:24 am

V5 in Development

Are the changes from V4 -> V5 mainly tonal or mechanical in nature?

Are they experimental changes you've wanted to try with DD, or are they responses to flaws and oversights you have found through play?

Will DD still focus on recapturing OD&D+Chainmail, or will it deviate from these to take on its own distinct character?
[f=4]Mero the Fighter (M 9", AC 2/4, hp 7/7, FC Man+1, L) plate+helm, spear+shield[/f]

Just don't panic because your life is in the hands of someone named Dopey
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Post Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:28 am

Re: V5 in Development

The Red Baron wrote:Are the changes from V4 -> V5 mainly tonal or mechanical in nature?

There will be some of each.
Most of the mechanical changes are relatively minor tweaks made for the sake of being a more correct representation of the original material (while still abiding strictly to the terms of the OGL). There are a handful of more "significant" mechanical changes along the same lines.
The "tonal" changes are mainly around cutting back prior editorial embelishments.

The Red Baron wrote:Are they experimental changes you've wanted to try with DD, or are they responses to flaws and oversights you have found through play?

Will DD still focus on recapturing OD&D+Chainmail, or will it deviate from these to take on its own distinct character?

The purpose of every individual change will be to bring DD nearer to the originally documented CM+3LBBs game.

Of course DD will still, necessarily, have a few elements that are wholly its own. The major examples that come immediately to mind are: V5's level titles for player-types, DD's sea-faring and aerial exploration games, and the SRD-based (rather than OD&D's Burrows/Tolkien/et. al.-based) foundation of DD's monster ecology. Of these, only the level titles are completely new in V5.
[f=32]Golgildir the Elf Medium (MV 12", AC 9, HD 1, hp 1/1, AL N) great cloak, lantern; spells: color spray; scrolls: sleep, sleep, charm person
Hirelings: Georges; torch[/f]
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Post Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:55 am

Re: V5 in Development

As said on G+, I'm willing to translate the game in French, starting with v5.

I'm currently busy with another translation project (ZeFRS in French with some additional contents), I don'ty have that much spare time, but I will be more available at the end of 2016 !
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Post Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:32 pm

Re: V5 in Development

soner du wrote:As said on G+, I'm willing to translate the game in French, starting with v5.

I'm currently busy with another translation project (ZeFRS in French with some additional contents), I don'ty have that much spare time, but I will be more available at the end of 2016 !


That sounds awesome. Plus, as I'm trying to work on restoring/growing my reading/writing/speaking of French, it would be great to have something like that to read and practice with! But that's purely selfish on my part. ;)
[f=4]Leudigar the Tracker (MV 9", AC 3/5, HD 2-2, hp ½/6, FC Man+1, L) mail+helm, silvered sword+Torch
Desmond/Mondes the Hobbet Hero/Burglar (MV 9", AC 5/7, HD 4/2+2, hp 19/19, FC Hero, N) leather+helm, short sword+main gauche[/f]
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Post Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:47 am

Re: V5 in Development

I have to say I'm unreasonably excited about this. The way you have dissected the source material in an effort to make DD, to paraphrase Dr Eldon Tyrell, "more OD&D than OD&D" is fascinating and highly laudable. I say this even though it makes my job in differentiating the BLUEHOLME™ Compleat Rules from OD&D + Greyhawk while staying true to the source material somewhat more difficult! :P
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Post Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:26 am

Re: V5 in Development

In some ways, 1974 is a nice, neat little package that can be examined "relatively clearly", by comparison with later periods. 1975 alone was a huge year in publishing for TSR ;)
[f=32]Golgildir the Elf Medium (MV 12", AC 9, HD 1, hp 1/1, AL N) great cloak, lantern; spells: color spray; scrolls: sleep, sleep, charm person
Hirelings: Georges; torch[/f]
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Post Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:26 am

Re: V5 in Development

I. Layout

-No paragraph spillover between pages :)

-Fighter comes before magic user comes before cleric :D

-Including additional spells and equipment in the appendices instead of the main rules is an excellent idea.

II. Rules

-
A Hero and above... is unaffected by fewer than four normal hits in a combat encounter

Wow, going back to chainmail makes fighting men a lot tougher. Does this hold true for 4+ HD monsters too? Does a superhero need8 simultaneous hit then, like in chainmail? I like the "not be targeted by normal-types while there are normal targets available" rule from v4 a lot better. Why did you decide to make that change?

-Wizards give a morale bonus to troops? I don't know how I feel about this. Its kind of cool, but infringes on one of the great powers of the fighting man.

-The Anti-cleric rules are more fleshed out. Good. :twisted: Their level titles are a bit underwhelming though.

-The dwarf description is much better, however:
However, giants and the like have difficulty catching them and willcause only half hits.

Does this mean damage as in v4? I use the terms "hits" and "hit points" interchangeably, but many people do not.

-The elf description from v4 is far better than that in v5

-Halflings Hobbets ;)

-Changing class rules seem to imply that all characters work similarly to elves where they have two classes at once.

-Levels Beyond the 12th: this whole section is hard to read.

-Its a nice hint to players to list hirelings before equipment.

-The encumbrance and equipment lists are very concise and reminiscent of M&M

-The explanation of rations is very important and a good addendum

-
1 gold piece = 10 silver pieces = 50 copper pieces.

Why would you do this? :? :?:

-The explanation of Hireling Loyalty and Enlisting Monsters set the tone of the game. Consider re-inclusion.

-Its nothing new to DD, but why do magic-users get a hit die boost? Not disagreeing with it, just wondering.

-Spell lists are cut back to OD&D spells :)

-Witch Lock is still a dumb name for a spell. :roll:

-Get yer Phantasmal Forces back (From Chainmail!) :shock: :o :D :D :D Great!

-Can feeblemind also be cured by a remove curse?

III. Other

-The history of thieves in the appendix is a nice bit of info.
[f=4]Mero the Fighter (M 9", AC 2/4, hp 7/7, FC Man+1, L) plate+helm, spear+shield[/f]

Just don't panic because your life is in the hands of someone named Dopey
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Post Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:38 am

Re: V5 in Development

Thanks for the detailed feedback Red Baron; some useful observations/comments.

FWIW--some of these have already been raised/answered on the DD G+ group (see http://tinyurl.com/DelvingDeeperGPlusCommunity), but I'll answer here also for convenience...

The Red Baron wrote:-
A Hero and above... is unaffected by fewer than four normal hits in a combat encounter

Does this hold true for 4+ HD monsters too? Does a superhero need8 simultaneous hit then, like in chainmail? I like the "not be targeted by normal-types while there are normal targets available" rule from v4 a lot better. Why did you decide to make that change?

* This isn't intended to apply for 4 HD monsters; only Heroes (and above).

* CM isn't explicit that Superheroes are only slain by 8 simultaneous hits, and I haven't found any example that this was in fact the case. Not sure it would have been necessary since normals would flee from a superhero anyway. Happy to be educated otherwise but--until I find more tangible support for it--my view is that the 8 hits rule probably shouldn't be stated explicitly in DD. As it stands, whether or not the 8 hits rule is implicit is for the individual ref to decide, as per the original :)

* The "not targeted by normals" rule still appears in V5; it has been moved into the general combat rules in booklet two.

The Red Baron wrote:-Wizards give a morale bonus to troops? I don't know how I feel about this. Its kind of cool, but infringes on one of the great powers of the fighting man.

I agree. However, the rule is directly from CM.

The Red Baron wrote:-The Anti-cleric rules are more fleshed out. Good. :twisted: Their level titles are a bit underwhelming though.

I'm happy to entertain alternative level titles; in fact I have solicited for suggestions in the past, but few (none?) have been forthcoming :(


The Red Baron wrote:-The dwarf description is much better, however:
However, giants and the like have difficulty catching them and willcause only half hits.

Does this mean damage as in v4? I use the terms "hits" and "hit points" interchangeably, but many people do not.

This rule is straight out of CM, which talks in terms of "kills". D&D says kills become hits, so on that basis it should be half "hits", which would be neat. Alas, M&T also includes a passage that explicitly describes this rule in terms of half the number of hit-points damage caused by a hit.

This is certainly an area where I have chosen to make DD more ambiguous that the original, so that the ref can choose to use half hits or half damage. For me, I prefer half hits.

The Red Baron wrote:-The elf description from v4 is far better than that in v5

Do you mean in terms of grammar/readability, or in terms of game rules?

For the former: yes I agree that the whole text still needs a few of the hard-edges rounded off. That will (hopefully) come from some reading aloud sessions.

For the latter: V5 is a truer representation of the 1974 elf rules; it's the sum of the CM+3LBB elf as it was in print in 1974. Some of the intricacies may be easier to digest in light of the combat rules (in booklet two), but V5 captures--as best I can make it--the printed elf rules as they were in 1974. Yes, elves were over-powered; every one of 'em a potential Fëanor.

The Red Baron wrote:-Changing class rules seem to imply that all characters work similarly to elves where they have two classes at once.

The Changing Class para (p13) states only what appears in the 3LBBs, including the phrase that "changing class is not recommended".
The Combination Characters rule appearing in Appendix A (p37) repeats the V4 rule. Yes, it implies that all combination characters are handled in the same manner as elves. This is largely because no other guide was given in 1974; that's all there was, so it seems logical (to me) to re-purpose it.

The Red Baron wrote:-Levels Beyond the 12th: this whole section is hard to read.

Yes, this concern has been raised a couple of times.
I have decided to move this section into booklet two, where the ref will be given some guidance around handling player progression. It isn't really player information, per se, and will be easier to digest in light of other details in booklet two.

The Red Baron wrote:-
1 gold piece = 10 silver pieces = 50 copper pieces.

Why would you do this? :? :?:

M&T p39

The Red Baron wrote:-The explanation of Hireling Loyalty and Enlisting Monsters set the tone of the game. Consider re-inclusion.

I agree that it's useful for players to realise they can hire monsters, however that section is presently in booklet two as the mechanics of how to handle this are largely for the referee.

The Red Baron wrote:-Its nothing new to DD, but why do magic-users get a hit die boost? Not disagreeing with it, just wondering.

I realise that M-Us appear to advance one HD per two levels in M&M. However, that pattern only persists up until 4 HD; thereafter M-Us gain their next 4 HD in just four levels.

The key information that DD gathers from the player advancement tables in M&M is that Fighters have 9 HD at "top level" (aka "name level" in AD&D), while M-Us and Clerics have only 7 HD at "top level". Yes, DD "smooths" the M-U's HD progression over the level range compared to the original, but still captures the more important (IMHO) HD comparison across the classes at their respective top levels.


The Red Baron wrote:-Witch Lock is still a dumb name for a spell. :roll:

Wizard Lock and Wizard Eye are not SRD spell names.
The SRD invites one to employ "Arcane Lock" and "Arcane Eye" instead.
I prefer "Witch Lock" and "Witch Eye" to the SRD offerings, and also; it's a little something unique about DD. Witch, Wizard, Wizard/Witch, Witch/Wizard? They seem to go nicely together for me, besides which (ha!) the "Witch" spells are a part of the earlier DD versions, so there's precedent to consider too.

The Red Baron wrote:-Get yer Phantasmal Forces back (From Chainmail!) :shock: :o :D :D :D Great!

Yes Sir! It appears you're onto it :)
You may be interested in my explanatory notes here.


The Red Baron wrote:-Can feeblemind also be cured by a remove curse?

Hmm... unlike Dispel Magic, a Remove Curse does not require the caster to roll for his power level versus that of the other caster. Ultimately it's up to the ref, but I think I might rule: No, you'll require a Dispel Evil instead. Up to you. :)

Thanks again Red Baron... great work!
[f=32]Golgildir the Elf Medium (MV 12", AC 9, HD 1, hp 1/1, AL N) great cloak, lantern; spells: color spray; scrolls: sleep, sleep, charm person
Hirelings: Georges; torch[/f]
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:48 am

Re: V5 in Development

A few of the original cleric and druid level titles sound pretty spooky:

Adept
Acolyte
Initiate of the x circle
EHP

I guess you could throw Black Knight in there too
[f=4]Mero the Fighter (M 9", AC 2/4, hp 7/7, FC Man+1, L) plate+helm, spear+shield[/f]

Just don't panic because your life is in the hands of someone named Dopey
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